WACA - Symposium - 2024 - WSLCB Board Leadership
(December 4, 2024) - Summary

WACA members had a myriad of questions for former WSLCB Board Chair David Postman as he assumed a new post as Chief of Staff for the incoming Attorney General.

Here are some observations from the Wednesday December 4th Washington CannaBusiness Association (WACA) 2024 Symposium.

My top 3 takeaways:

• WACA Executive Director Vicki Christophersen introduced David Postman, former chair of the Washington State Liquor and Cannabis Board (WSLCB), and encouraged him to reflect on his tenure at the agency.
  • On November 13th, Postman revealed he would be leaving the WSLCB to accept an appointment as chief of staff for incoming Attorney General (AG), Nick Brown. Postman had already been scheduled as a WACA symposium speaker by that point.
  • Christophersen welcomed Postman, noting his time as Board Chair began in 2021, as well as his decades of prior work for Governor Jay Inslee, in the private sector, and as a reporter, including for the Seattle Times. “We'd really love to hear your reflections after your time at the LCB,” she established, “but we'd also really love to have a collaborative relationship with this new AG, and we'd like to talk to you about what that looks like.” She thanked Postman for participating during a busy transition period for the state government.
    • WSLCB Board Member Ollie Garrett was appointed to the transition team for Governor-elect Bob Ferguson in her capacity as CEO of Tabor 100.
  • Christophersen began by asking Postman to reflect on his time at the agency which "feels like a lot longer time for a lot of us,” asking, “what are the top…couple things you think the agency needs to do to continue to grow or do better job of regulating this industry and all the industries?”
    • Postman qualified his remarks, noting the abruptness of his new appointment and departure from the agency after November 20th had left him with little bandwidth to reflect on his time at WSLCB. In March 2021, he assumed the chairmanship bringing minimal experience with cannabis policymaking from Inslee’s office, reflecting how Inslee had originally opposed the legalization measure voters approved “as did the attorney general, our next governor.” But Postman also noted the measure had received more votes in 2012 than either of them.
    • With no regulatory background, Postman set about learning from agency staff, highlighting how delta-8-THC products had drawn “really heated testimony” early on in his tenure “related to this and how this is going to be the death of the marketplace. And so, boy, we better get real into this.” But the industry moved quickly, so he then learned about "hemp direct THC.”
    • Complicating this, were “smaller growers, outdoor growers, a lot, who were just so convinced that the LCB, members of the board, me included, were in the pocket of - well, you guys.”  Postman had found “it wasn't that unusual for within a one week time I would feel like I was being accused of being in the pocket of one side for the other, or both, or anti-cannabis, or whatever it is.” He said he made the mistake of “reacting to things” which had made sense in his past government roles, but he had had to learn about a “regulator’s role” of working with other interested parties.
    • Furthermore, Postman regarded WSLCB as having an “unusual governance structure” with a part-time board “and then the three board members hire the director, who then manages the staff. There's no other place in state government that has that model today.” In fact, with the board appointed by the governor, Postman reasoned he had “more influence over the LCB as [Inslee’s] chief of staff than I did as board chair.”

• Christophersen raised concerns of her members while posing questions to Postman, asking how industry advocates should interact with the agency and with the incoming attorney general, the priorities of the WSLCB, and topics like robberies and hemp product enforcement.
  • Christophersen asked Postman for advice on agency regulatory change and constructive cannabis industry advocate interaction with WSLCB.
    • Postman responded that agency staff need to "keep listening" to all stakeholders, including not just licensees, but also prevention advocates along with public health and local government officials. He noted a tendency in state agencies to put their heads down and focus on the work, making it hard to consider new ideas outside of getting “marching orders from the legislature” in the form of new laws. He felt the board had less leeway to set policies, instead functioning as a “reactive body.” Postman said, “one of the hardest things to do is to…do all your work as best you possibly can, and then go, ‘oh, and now, how can I be better? What's around the corner?...What haven't I thought of?’ Because everybody's already overloaded.”
    • He encouraged agency leaders to rely on the Research Program WSLCB established in 2023, observing how those staffers had “a lot of leeway to go and try to answer some of these questions people have.” He respected how research staff did a good job of talking about their findings in plain language.
    • Postman also advised agency staff to be open to change, willing to debate, and willing to listen to people while emphasizing the importance of compartmentalizing and being reasonable. Officials should be open to policy differences, and he believed there were too many issues and concerns at WSLCB to be dwelling on any one subject. However, he added, “there is no regulatory agency that I know of that is loved by the regulated community, or vice versa,” he remarked.
  • Christophersen again asked Postman for feedback for the cannabis industry as they continued to chart their path, particularly regarding interactions with WSLCB.
    • Postman urged the regulated community to try to have an open mind about what agency staff were doing, as it “doesn’t come from a bad place.” He said that he had never heard anyone at the agency say behind closed doors that they were "going to screw this guy.” He challenged the perception that WSLCB staff behaved “overly bureaucratic, uncaring…timid and worse…vindictive.”
    • Another suggestion from Postman was to proactively seek consensus and collaboration within the industry, particularly around key things that were important to its success or survival. He stated that it had become too easy to kill legislation with the industry split, preventing progress. Postman offered WSLCB as a place through which different groups could collaborate and “continue to protect what the voters asked for, which is access to cannabis for responsible adults.” He said an example of this was the way Public Health Education Liaison Kristen Haley had been bringing together prevention and public health figures. Meanwhile, the “industry is fighting most for itself. The industry is fighting public health. We're all fighting with the legislature.”
  • Christophersen was curious about establishing a hierarchy of enforcement priorities for the WSLCB, arguing agency staff previously placed too much emphasis on "nit picky kinds of things.” She was hopeful they could put more focus on the "really big, important issues," such as diversion and youth access prevention.
    • Postman said they should contemplate the legacy of the federal Cole Memorandum, including whether aspects of it had become a “drag on innovation.” He noted the industry had done a great job keeping cannabis out of illicit markets, and hoped they could work with WSLCB staff to determine which regulations could be relaxed and where to double down.
    • Postman stated that it is "somewhat endemic to regulatory schemes" that enforcement actions are never viewed as good by those being regulated. He indicated agency enforcement staff were originally told to not let "one seed get out of [their] sight", because of fears the federal government would shut them down. Postman reflected on a tenth anniversary discussion board members had with public health experts and how a list of terrible things they thought were going to happen hadn’t come true. While he supported updating the agency's approach to enforcement he cautioned it would be hard to tell enforcement staff to pick and choose which things to enforce, as they want to “go by the book.”
    • Repeating his call for consensus from industry participants on what regulations to relax, Postman suggested Washington state had one of the best cannabis systems, “but it's harder when knocking on the door is this largely unregulated market out there, and so it becomes a little harder for people like me to keep protecting what we have, because it could go away.”
  • Christophersen wanted to know about the top priorities of incoming Attorney General Nick Brown, pointing out he’d been part of the team that worked on the Cole Memo.
    • Postman stated that Brown's top priorities included public safety, addressing the fentanyl crisis, ensuring that safety and security were not dependent on where someone lives or goes to school, worker protection, and worker rights. He also noted that Brown had a unit within his office specifically focused on worker issues. “His whole career has been about equal access to justice, and he's going to continue to work on that,” said Postman. Besides being “knowledgeable about the cannabis industry” following a stint as US Attorney for Western Washington, Postman said someone joked he “must be whispering in Nick's ear, because he said this thing was so great. I had, of course, nothing to do with it, but I took credit for it.”
    • Postman also anticipated that Attorney General Brown would have to defend Washington state against the incoming presidential administration of Donald Trump, which he argued posed "serious threats to things that people in Washington state hold dear." 
    • Postman stated that Brown was interested in seeing what the state can do to support universities in doing more research on cannabis, which they had been reluctant to do because of a past opinion from the US Department of Justice that cautioned against it. Postman planned to ask Brown about this, as it was important to consider how it played into a “national model.”
  • Christophersen then asked how the cannabis industry might approach interactions with the new Attorney General, mentioning that they’d struggled with the current AG, who was “superficial at best," and "at worst…confrontational.”
    • Postman acknowledged that the Washington State Office of the Attorney General (WA OAG) would be a place to start bringing conversations around policy and legal issues. He believed that Brown understood the industry and wasn’t frightened by the idea of engaging in these conversations. He then suggested that regulators should care about the financial health of the industry, arguing the stronger the industry was, the more successful and law-abiding it would be. He also wanted to stress the importance of reassuring people in Washington that a closely regulated, safe market still existed. However, Postman was unsure how to advise the new AG on the cannabis industry given uncertainty in the national legal environment around cannabis.
      • While President Joe Biden received a recommendation to recategorize cannabis as a Schedule III controlled substance in May 2024, the change hadn’t been finalized at publication time.
      • President-Elect Trump made comments in favor of a Florida legalization measure in September 2024, but he hadn’t indicated his position on rescheduling.
  • Christophersen also touched on the issue of violent robberies at cannabis businesses which licensees had been enduring for years, in particular asking about legislation mirroring penalties for similar robberies at a pharmacy. She commented on how the robberies had led to the death of one budtender and caused trauma and injury to others.
    • Postman responded that he had not given that approach much thought as it was hard to get enhanced criminal penalties passed in the legislature. He was skeptical of the ability to measure progress after increasing penalties as “you can't find causation or even correlation in some cases.”
    • When Christophersen mentioned the possibility of a meeting with WA OAG leaders once Postman was in his new post to discuss an updated version of a cannabis robberies bill from 2024, Postman was receptive and noted part of the legislative process included WA OAG weighing in on bills like that.
    • Later in the conversation, Lux Pot Shop Co-Owner Shea Hynes returned to the topic of robberies, stating that the crimes were making it "completely lawless in Seattle right now" and untenable to run a small business with this type of safety issue for staff. He insisted the industry used to be a champion of strong pay and health care benefits, but some businesses had to retract those benefits because of the cost of damage from robberies. He called on AG-elect Brown to support increased penalties, but also asked for other ideas and ways to address the issue.
  • Christophersen inquired about what the new Attorney General could do to help enforce existing limitations on hemp-derived THC products, as WSLCB authority was limited to their licensed communities, whereas WA OAG could take a more proactive stance to help, such as sending notices to people selling on the internet.
    • Postman agreed this was a tough conversation at WSLCB, but stressed he didn’t speak for Brown. Postman additionally acknowledged how mail order products were particularly difficult to address because of laws around the privacy of what is sent in the mail, and that it took a lot of people and staff hours to make a case.
    • He then relayed how law enforcement at every level were not as concerned about cannabis as they were about fentanyl, making it hard to win that conversation. Moreover, “some in law enforcement don't love the idea that cannabis [wa]s legalized,” Postman said, and weren’t looking to expend many resources enforcing restrictions on hemp consumables as a result. He summarized that police had competing priorities and addressing the illicit hemp market was not one of them as it was expensive and resulted in minimal impacts on the overall market.
    • Postman’s concluding sentiment on hemp consumable enforcement was that he didn’t “want to be too pessimist about it, but I fear the Farm Bill loophole stuff is going to become…perfect. It's going to spread.”
  • WACA Deputy Director Brooke Davies followed up to ask whether there could be a consumer protection angle to address businesses that mislead consumers about the contents and safety of hemp products.
    • While he’d heard conversations to this effect, Postman said he hadn’t discussed it with the incoming administration, but that the short answer was, “yeah, it’s certainly possible.”
  • Davies next inquired about ways for their members to engage on agency policymaking, arguing WSLCB board meetings hadn’t been a friendly place to participate due to a hostile environment and assumptions about the industry.
    • Postman responded that the board meetings had “become largely unpleasant,” and that although he was a big believer in open government, it could still be hard on board members. He recognized people should have the right to criticize government leaders, but that became difficult when criticism was repetitive, personal, and made others feel the board meetings were not a welcoming environment for their voices.
    • Regardless, he urged people to come to meetings and talk directly to board members about what was important to them, to be critical but also to come with ideas, as this might change the overall tone. Postman added that it wasn’t “fun” to be the one board member who showed up in person, but he still encouraged people to come to the meetings.
      • Postman’s successor, former WSLCB Board Member Jim Vollendroff, enforced a more disciplined public comment period during his first meeting as chair when he had an attendee removed after they repeatedly interrupted proceedings.

• Other attendees raised questions about the ability of state employees to consume cannabis on their personal time, the development of regional cannabis regulations with nearby states, and leadership at WSLCB before Postman gave his final thoughts.
  • Zips Cannabis Owner Scott Atkison wanted to know whether state employees were allowed to consume cannabis, as he’d been “informed by one of the regulators” this wasn’t the case.
    • Postman responded that such a restriction was not a law or a rule, and that while there could be some jobs where it was not allowed, "nobody ever told me that.”
  • Salal Credit Union President and CEO Russell Rosendal, also a WACA Board of Trustees Member, asked if Washington officials had had conversations with their peers in Oregon and California about creating a regional regulatory environment.
    • Postman responded that there had been some conversations, but it had been months since they last spoke. One thread from those conversations was the “massive threat brought by the Farm Bill” legalizing hemp in 2018. Although there was a group of WSLCB staff who were always in touch “through CANNRA [the Cannabis Regulators Association] ,” he had not often engaged with other states’ leaders. Postman mentioned it was unknown where the Biden administration Justice Department would have headed on interstate commerce, though he’d been “told that might be looked at differently under the new administration.”
    • Postman acknowledged that interstate commerce happened all over the country, making it hard to know what states could do collectively. Additionally, common ground on regulation with Oregon and California was challenging as there were significant regulatory differences, like Oregon’s lack of a cap on the number of cannabis retail stores.
  • Raven Co-Owner Micah Sherman asked Postman how he felt about the possibility of a bill to make the WSLCB Director a gubernatorial appointment, rather than being chosen by the board.
    • Postman asserted that the board was not the problem, rather there were structural, cultural, political, and legislative issues that needed to be addressed. He cited the challenges of running WSLCB from the director’s point of view, because the agency had three board members who were nominally in charge, but worked part time and did not direct staff. 
    • Postman said the board didn’t “direct the staff at all” but rather had a “sort of policy-setting role” and “don't really feel like we're setting that agenda.” He could imagine a different arrangement where the board maintained adjudicative and rulemaking roles, but cautioned that people need to think about what they are really trying to fix. Among the most common criticisms he’d heard was how long rulemaking took, and he didn’t see that getting better should the director be appointed by the governor.
      • WSLCB Policy and Rules Manager Cassidy West was removed from her post in the days prior to this event.
    • Postman also suggested that the issue may be a lack of funding, legislative crafting, and the fact that the board members had a lot of independence and could only be removed through impeachment. He acknowledged the WSLCB system had come out of alcohol prohibition, and it might not be working for today’s market. 
  • In his closing thoughts, Postman encouraged attendees to develop relationships with the current board members.
    • Postman was grateful for his fellow board members, calling them “very educated public servants” who were strong supporters of the regulated cannabis industry and willing to hear ideas from interested parties. He considered it “weird” that they barely talked outside of meetings, but there were good reasons for that.
  • Wrapping things up with a cheeky award for Postman’s service, Christophersen admitted the industry was continuously innovating and an alleged beverage manufacturer offered samples of “Postman’s Potion” with taglines like "the legacy elixir," "the legal libation," "the compliance cooler," and "regulated to perfection."
    • More seriously, she stated that regulators and the regulated would always have a “bumpy” relationship, but WACA leadership appreciated Postman’s willingness to work with them as well as many of the reforms that happened during his tenure. Christophersen concluded that WACA members looked forward to working with him in his new role.