WSLCB - Focus Group - High THC Products
(June 26, 2024)

Here are some observations from the Wednesday June 26th Washington State Liquor and Cannabis Board (WSLCB) focus group on high tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) products.

My top 3 takeaways:

• Agency hosts introduced themselves and offered some of the history behind the decision to hold focus groups on “high THC” products.
  • Public Health Education Liaison Kristen Haley described her expertise as “a trained health educator” who had “worked in alcohol and other drug prevention and harm reduction for most of my career” with an emphasis on “using marketing tools for behavior change” (audio - 1m).
    • Haley previously worked as Social Marketing and Public Health Campaign Manager for the Washington State Department of Health (DOH).
  • Board Member Jim Vollendroff expressed his excitement over the conversation and explained officials’ hope to “get ahead of potential legislation that may come at us in this next session” by gathering information and being proactive in “reaching out to legislators and asking them if they're in fact planning on dropping legislation related to high THC.” He said agency staff preferred to “be a part of their drafting, or understand why we shouldn't be a part of their potential proposal. And your input is going to be really critical to that” (audio - 1m).
    • With a history in behavioral health and recovery, Vollendroff joined the board in May 2022.
  • Director of Policy and External Affairs Justin Nordhorn seconded Vollendroff and considered the focus group might help bridge “the gap in the stakeholder arena, between public health and the industry.” He’d seen “a lot of alignment of interest points” between the groups even though the “perspectives are still different, but I think we're getting there and these types of open conversations and dialogue is going to help with that. And it helps make informed decisions” (audio - 1m).
  • Haley shared that in “2023 and 2024, we had a number of high THC bills, some went through several iterations,” specifically HB 2320 (“Concerning high THC [tetrahydrocannabinol] cannabis products”) which was signed on March 29th.
    • The legislation gave DOH “an unfunded request to do a campaign” educating the public around the products and required input by WSLCB. Several versions of the bill were proposed, like one with “some sort of tax piece that lasted a day and then came back out.” Throughout the legislative session, Haley found “me and some of our public health partners…didn't really have the space or capacity to like deep dive, how do we feel about age gating…what is the impact of that” on tax revenue or the unregulated market. She felt the limited legislative calendar was “not a conducive time to have those kinds of deep, thoughtful conversations,” and so WSLCB leaders wanted to convene such discussions before the 2025 session. Haley wanted to find productive common ground between stakeholder groups and “looked at what other states were doing,” particularly California. Regulators there engaged in an “18 to 24 month long process, where they have a group of folks that they have hand selected,” she explained, and Washington officials wanted to build on that format of “mostly researchers” to involve “a group of much more diverse disciplines.” The plan was to have separate talks with public health and cannabis sector interests to “build the trust, build that security between these two partners, and then bring partners together who might feel more comfortable talking with one another,” said Haley. She intended the discussion to allow industry representatives to “finish a thought without feeling like you're under attack by preventionists” (audio - 5m).
      • In addition to the tasks for WSLCB and DOH in HB 2320 as passed by the legislature, the Washington State Health Care Authority (WA HCA) was required to issue a request for proposals (RFP) on a “contract to develop and implement guidance and health interventions for health care providers, certain patients, and for other uses, with reports.” However, the supplemental operating budget language signed the same day allocated $328,000 in fiscal year (FY) 2025 using language that would either require WA HCA to contract with the University of Washington Addictions, Drug, and Alcohol Institute (UW ADAI) for that work or potentially absorb the costs.
      • During the 2023 legislative session, Vollendroff brought attention to legislation on high THC products.  In 2024, he inquired whether the subject had been addressed in closed meetings with public health and prevention leaders.  And on June 12th during a discussion about potential 2025 legislation, he emphasized that he’d “talked to [HB 2320 sponsor Representative Lauren] Davis about this, but I anticipate the high THC concentration products will come up in some fashion.”
    • Vollendroff remarked that he’d been “impressed” with previous meetings with industry members, and believed differing sides could “coalesce on issues related to prevention, and informing people about safe cannabis use.” He added that “we really don't want people to, on the prevention side, to think that in any way that we are thinking of banning this product or anything like that.” He also knew there was significant support in the cannabis sector of “keeping product out of the hands of young people” as one area of concern was “young people living with psychosis using high THC concentration products.” Vollendroff mentioned his time at an International Society for the Study of Drug Policy (ISSDP) conference in Montreal, Canada, and “how that particular province differs from the other provinces, how they're handling things, and I think that we have some opportunities to learn from some of those things” (audio - 3m).
      • Topicals and cannabis vapor products remain legal federally in Canada, but banned by Québec provincial law. Québec cannabis laws require that THC content in non-edible products “must not exceed 30% weight.” This has had the effect of prohibiting the sale of some cannabis concentrates, though since 2019 many types have been allowed following refining methods to ensure THC content is 30% or less.
    • Haley stressed that they intended to share themes or ideas with other interested parties and leadership at other state agencies, “so that next session, we might be able to move the needle a little bit further. And I want us to just keep our eye on the horizon,” whether it was “future program modifications, public health education campaigns, rulemaking…and/or legislation” (audio - 2m).
    • Vollendroff added that while his background was in behavioral health and recovery, he wanted the cannabis sector to “thrive.” However, two groups concerned him when it came to concentrated cannabis products: “individuals living with mental illness, and particularly those who are living with psychosis,” and those “who self identify as being in recovery from a substance use, cannabis use diagnosis.” While he’d seen people in recovery for other substances like alcohol “who've used cannabis as part of their recovery program,” Vollendroff wanted to respect needs of people “in recovery, particularly from a cannabis use disorder…how do we make sure we are looking out for them, people in recovery, people living with mental illness in youth and young adults as part of this overall conversation” (audio - 2m).
      • Vollendroff’s twice voiced concern about a population of people “living with psychosis” may be a rhetorical shift of note. Public health officials have previously voiced interest in mitigating the potential harms of youth experiencing ‘first-episode psychosis’ in connection with high THC products, a phrase Cannabis Observer has not identified Vollendroff himself as using.
        • In 2020, Michael McDonell, Associate Professor at the WSU Elson S. Floyd College of Medicine and Washington State University (WSU) Collaboration on Cannabis Policy, Research, and Outreach (CCPRO) Member, said his research centered on “the impact of cannabis on first episode psychosis.”
        • In 2021, Beatriz Carlini, UW School of Public Health Affiliate Associate Professor, UW ADAI Senior Researcher, spoke in favor of legislation to limit sale of THC concentrates by saying, in part, the move would safeguard “youth from developing psychosis later in life.”
        • Cannabis tax revenue in 2023 and 2024 was allotted to UW ADAI specifically “to develop resources regarding the connection between first episode psychosis and cannabis use.”

• The ensuing conversation hit on topics of interest to WSLCB staff and participants, such as risks related to THC concentration; strategies for increasing public awareness and education; retail warning signage; and future research topics.
  • Haley introduced three grounding questions which participants were encouraged to respond to about “safer and healthier outcomes for cannabis consumers” (audio - 2m, presentation, notes):
    • “What, if anything, do you consider the biggest risk posed by high THC products?”
    • “What changes, if any, would you like to see related to regulations of high THC products? What do you hope will stay the same?”
    • “Are there other strategies beyond changes to regulations that you consider valuable and potentially effective?”
  • Caitlein Ryan, The Cannabis Alliance Executive Director, started off by deemphasizing a “binary” view of the situation, as some “questions already ha[d] an assumption underlying that is a little bit problematic,” yet “then hitting the ‘No, everything's fine’ as the only other option is also challenging.” Wanting to focus on how “education is…the space in between” those extremes, she favored “ensuring that people are armed with really good quality, scientifically based information about these products.” This included recognizing risks of over consumption of cannabis or “information about family history,” Ryan noted (audio - 2m).
  • Micah Sherman, Raven Co-Owner and Washington Sun and Craft Growers Association (WSCA) Board Member and National Craft Cannabis Coalition (NCCC) Member, agreed with Ryan, and felt the biggest risk was “to continue the approaches of prohibition and the war on drugs in a new form, under a regulated environment.” He asserted the “biggest issue with prohibition was the failure of the State, and its execution of that project” which had negative consequences throughout the population - including some that “are still ongoing”  (audio - 3m).
    • Sherman said “top of the list for me is…education and understanding about these products,” which for him meant better “defining our product categories” which complicated “talking about the difference between extremely processed, manufactured, synthesized, all chemically altered, flavored, all of these additional ingredients that get added into cannabis products.” He argued poorly considered product categories were a hindrance “when we start to regulate and investigate these more complicated manufactured products, that we don't end up in a situation where natural cannabis and natural cannabis products get kind of lumped into the regulatory structure for these more complicated manufactured products.” Sherman further regarded this as leading to “really good legislation and policy around how to treat those things distinctly.”
  • Bethany Rondeaux, Falcanna Owner, commented how “psychosis is also something that can happen from alcohol as well” and the group should be mindful that consumers were “adults that are coming to the stores” and were already judging “the risk factor of using a product.” Mentioning that her experience with cannabis started under the medical system, she’d perceived a lot of people opposing legal cannabis “that think that we're actively selling to underage people or children” (audio - 4m).
    • Rondeaux said many cannabis licensees felt like her, suspicious that underage access was “actually from the hemp space…I have nine nieces and nephews that are all teenagers right now…I will get screenshots of them, showing me where they're buying THCA [Tetrahydrocannabinolic acid] product at a gas station and saying…’this really, you know, gets me high.” She wanted to be certain  “the regulated THC…industry is not being lumped in with the unregulated hemp industry.” Rondeaux had heard people testifying in favor of greater THC regulation “and a lot of them were talking about how their teenager got access.” She suspected “there are other factors and other industries that are bringing these high potency products to the underage people.”
    • Haley acknowledged that checks for licensees which were conducted when Enforcement and Education staff sent in persons under 21 to attempt to buy cannabis showed retail compliance was “very high and something that I think the state should be proud of.” She presumed there was “confusion, not only with public health partners, but also with…parents and schools and just the community at large about the fact that there's a difference [in] licensed regulated products and these illicit products.” While cannabis had been “sold on street corners, or…behind closed doors…this is stuff being, being purchased on the internet, gas stations, like you just mentioned,” so Haley thought doing more to call out “that comparison, and that distinction will help us tackle the actual problem.”
  • Vollendroff chimed in to agree on the failure of the war on drugs, and he was “in no way interested in doing anything that would further position us in a way that would advance” cannabis prohibition. His focus was on consumer education and product safety. He recognized that people opposed to cannabis sales had “baggage” and they had to “continuously remind people…our compliance rates are really high in our retail stores, that the vast majority of people who choose to use this product don't have a problem with this product,” and “we haven't seen a huge increase in young people's use as a result of cannabis legalization.” Vollendroff wanted people to understand that just having the conversation shouldn’t be seen as “pointing a finger or in any way indicating that there's a pervasive problem around the whole cannabis industry.” He agreed with the sentiment of Rondeaux that sales of synthesized cannabis products around the state was a problem lawmakers and state agencies needed to address (audio - 2m).
  • Bailey Hirschburg, a cannabis consumer and member of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML), said he was someone who endeavored “to think about the needs and experience and outcomes of people who are buying these products.” He suggested better outcomes for consumers would result from encouraging them to purchase from the regulated market where products were tested, accurately labeled, and had “levels of accountability for their manufacturing and distribution.” Hirschburg felt one of the pitfalls of cannabis prohibition was that a majority who didn’t consume the plant presumed banning it was in the best interests of those who did (audio - 6m).
    • Agreeing with other speakers that education was important, Hirschburg advised that “setting social standards and setting…common civic expectations around these products” had value separate from enacted regulations. Beyond providing scientifically defensible information, he wanted to see “ways that the LCB or other state agencies can be part of communicating” how to have a “healthy relationship” with cannabis use, and what were fair “social expectations for how people use” cannabis items. Hirschburg hoped to see “people who will be concerned about consumers and their health outcomes, not in the sense of a legal problem or reporting a crime, but in the sense of, generally having care and compassion.”
    • Haley agreed “It actually reminds me of a conversation we had with the public health partners around not demonizing high THC,” since “there's a real stigma that can happen when we talk about…certain substances.” She felt moving away from stigmatization “really resonated with our public health partners.” 
    • “I think there's a difference between ‘normalization’ and ‘casualization’” regarding cannabis use, said Hirschburg. He claimed there were “very dangerous things that are treated casually, but for the most part, I think there can be…both general expectations and…aspects of regulation that try to support or reinforce that.
  • Rondeaux asked who WSLCB leaders had been speaking with in the legislature that may have set an expectation for additional legislation around high THC products. As a multi-state operator, she found “Washington already has a lot of really excellent guardrails in place,” naming the limits on sale of cannabis concentrates as something that discouraged “overconsumption.” She also knew Washington State had the highest taxes on cannabis items of any legal state. Rondeaux considered Washington to have “the most stable market, the most consistent and the most functional for us” as a “small-to-medium sized business” (audio - 7m).
    • “I don't think we're going to ever save every single person who potentially develop[s] psychosis,” observed Rondeaux, and “we can't ban something for [a] few amount of people who…potentially abuse” it. She noted a previous legislative proposal included a new age restriction of 25 for concentrates, but that “will just create a huge black market.”
    • Besides taxation and age restrictions, the “only solution that I really see is just more regulation around…THCA, and these chemically converted [cannabidiol] CBD products out of the hemp industry to really help…manage this minor exposure.”
    • Rondeaux asked directly whether WSLCB intended to sponsor legislation on the matter and Nordhorn responded that they had no plans to, but some legislators might since “this has been a topic over the last couple of years. And so we want to make sure that when folks are coming to us and asking questions, particularly legislative members, and their staff that we have…well informed information” so staff could give a “reasonable response.” Vollendroff echoed that sentiment, stating that he personally wished to be “less reactive, and more proactive in the conversations” so that legislators might consult with WSLCB more directly. He also agreed with Rondeaux that a lot of regulations were working, but “overall conversation about taxes might be something that…could potentially yield some outcomes.”
  • Ryan remarked that cannabis interests “as an industry have been really willing and wanting to walk down this road of getting good information” to consumers, but felt “where we start to…fall off of that path” was anytime “attacks start to come.” She mentioned packaging changes and appropriate management of sales if the age-gate changed were a “challenging conversation.” As a parent, Ryan favored a “comprehensive approach to education” about cannabis, “something that gives parents language to talk to their kids about making safe choices” and safe storage of cannabis in the home. Returning to Hirschburg’s point about “casualization,” she recognized “people are afraid of that, if they talk about it, then that's going to somehow give their kids the idea that it's okay,” but she argued avoiding that conversation left parents unprepared and children at risk. Ryan conveyed that when industry members weren’t “defending ourselves against accusations of predatory behavior” they could help develop policy ideas. She added that “we have already heard that there is planned legislation, from some folks” at the UW ADAI “to continue along…some prohibitionist attitudes.” This made Ryan hopeful there would be more opportunities for them to give regulators feedback on the topic (audio - 8m).
    • Haley chimed in to say, “I've had now probably five or six hours of conversations with various partners across the field, and no one is talking about, like banning all high THC products, or, or completely restricting them.” She knew people who wanted to revert to criminalization after cannabis had been legalized, but “it doesn't ever come up anymore.” Most in public health and prevention spaces were appreciative that “in order to have their programs, state revenue must be generated to, to fund these programs.”
    • Vollendroff added that he’d been in meetings where re-criminalization did come up “and we shut it down…it’s a non-starter.”
    • Haley then said she appreciated Ryan’s concern about being on the defensive, and she saw their focus groups as a beginning “to have conversations with just industry folks” on high THC and potentially other topics down the road.
  • Sherman stressed how “one of the things that has frustrated me about this conversation over the years…as somebody who cultivates cannabis and…tries pretty hard to understand…what it is as a plant and what it's trying to do, I understand that it's…actually an incredibly powerful thing that has a lot of capacity to…affect us. And that it's important to approach that in a way that is respectful.” This appreciation for cannabis was a perspective “we're trying to cultivate into a larger audience,” he said, so “anything we can do, that's going to help people have a better understanding of cannabis, be it being able to go to farms, having more places to use cannabis together” would be beneficial. First hand learning by allowing consumers to visit farms and meet growers had potential to be “helpful for people to start to see what's really going on and make good decisions about what they're buying and what they're supporting,” Sherman commented (audio - 3m).
    • Sherman further emphasized “we are still locking up young people in prison for cannabis today in Washington state.” Following legalization, some “disparities between Black youth and White youth getting arrested increased fivefold. So we are still in an era of prohibition.” He wanted State officials to “acknowledge that we need to stop doing that to those children and start approaching it in a different way.”
    • Haley replied that “by and large public health and prevention partners are up in arms and angry about that as well.”
  • Lara Kaminsky, Cannabis Alliance Government Affairs Liaison, conveyed how concern around education was hardly new for the cannabis industry. The need for “curated” information relevant to consumers was long recognized and she suggested “creating in collaboration, educational campaigns with prevention and industry, might be the most powerful way to go about it.” Kaminsky felt oftentimes cannabis education was sent out by state agencies without an effort to hear from licensees, but nonetheless she said they were ready to collaborate. Any message developed in conjunction between all stakeholders “is going to land a lot better with the communities that we're trying to reach” (audio - 2m).
  • Hirschburg cautioned that “the best facts and figures and most accurate information still won't save us, if it's not presented in a way that people want to talk about, and to share.” While communicating health risks and calls for moderation, he encouraged “thinking [about] who's the most famous Washingtonian you can get to talk about this, or who's the, the most charming and outgoing person who can communicate on this?” Hirschburg knew such outreach would come with costs “to put out something that's, that's polished,” but “communicating science is somewhat of a different skill than simply conducting research or doing science…how are you going to commit to strategies to communicating…to the populations that you want to reach?” (audio - 2m).
    • Haley mentioned that DOH materials mandated by SB 2320 “had a bit of a snag because some of their staff have had family emergencies,” but they hoped to include cannabis sector voices as they developed optional budtender education related to THC concentration, “they hope by late summer, early fall to coordinate with partners.”
  • Esia DeLena, Evergreen Market Senior Strategist, indicated that a DOH-designed warning sign should include explicit statements related to use of concentrates by persons under 25 (audio - 1m).
    • DeLena further felt that either DOH or WSLCB staff needed to be able to communicate to retail staff the “why behind” any signage so they could convey its importance to customers (audio - 1m).
    • Sherman later wondered if the Washington State Office of the Attorney General (WA OAG) had weighed in on the legality of the proposed sign. He stated, if “we look at the language in the statute, it's rather speculative seeming. And so I just wonder if there's going to be a conversation about…is that a legally valid instruction, given the sort of uncertainty of the research around that topic?” (audio - 1m)
      • The statute language as passed in HB 2320 stated: “(5)(a) By December 31, 2024, licensed cannabis retailers shall post a conspicuous notice at the point of sale in retail outlets with information about: (i) The potential health risks and adverse health impacts that may be associated with the consumption of high THC cannabis; (ii) the potentially much higher risks that may be present for younger persons under age 25 as well as for persons who have or are at risk for developing certain mental health conditions or psychotic disorders; and (iii) where to find help in case of negative effects and resources for quitting or reducing cannabis consumption.”
  • Haley noted that DOH funding for cannabis education included separate accounts for youth and adult educational campaigns, but “it's not a large amount of money for how many audiences are part of that.” As passed, HB 2320 instructed DOH staff that they “should do a campaign, not that they had to,” and the department didn’t receive any additional funding for that work, “they're actually going to take funding out of other buckets to do the high THC component.” Haley reminded participants how “that's something to be really mindful [of] as a barrier to implementing that vision. And LCB doesn't have campaign funding allocated to us as an agency” (audio - 1m).
  • Haley asked “when you all think about more research, what does that look like to you? What sorts of research questions should be explored” (audio - 1m).
    • Medical patient John Kingsbury suggested regulators look into what modes of ingestion might be more prevalent among those under 25. He’d also gone into retailers to ask what medical cannabis products they stocked, and “the only thing they had was some sort of portable vaporizer.” Kingsbury felt a better understanding of what products and ways of ingesting various consumer groups preferred would aid education around cannabis concentrates (audio - 4m).
      • Vollendroff was on board with having “conversation about what's the safest route of administration” which could be beneficial information for new consumers
    • Rondeaux advised officials on the need for simplicity in educational resources, as well as urging research to look at the relative risks of psychosis for alcohol as compared to cannabis, and possible health implications for different heating levels for vapor devices (audio - 5m).
      • Perceiving a need to keep educational material simple, some consumers enjoyed concentrates “casually,” and she said they “can microdose really easily.” She’d heard questions about why some people choose to smoke cannabis rather than eat it, as the former could lead to lung problems, but impacts from edibles seemed more dependent on other factors like what you’d had to eat or how hydrated you were.
      • Rondeaux had also noticed “psychosis has been brought up a lot. I would really like to see a study that is psychosis-based but is looking at how much does alcohol cause potential psychosis issues and how much cannabis does.” Even though WSLCB regulated alcohol, “we don't really have these kind of conversations…about like, should we age gate beer.” Unless risks were shown to be “100 times, or some crazy amount of times more than alcohol, I just don't really feel like it's appropriate for the State to step in and say, ‘You're just not quite old enough, in our opinion.’”
      • The other area where Rondeaux thought State leaders could do more was around studying “heat and how high of a temperature you're using these vaporizing pens or, or devices” might impact the compounds people inhaled. “I've seen all kinds of different temperatures that people prefer to consume at,” she said, “but what we don't know is the additives like Micah has mentioned…what level are those potentially carcinogenic, at what temperatures, we don't really have that information.”
    • Hirschburg called for more research in three areas (audio - 2m):
      • “The difference between a newer, infrequent user and then a regular casual cannabis consumer,”
      • “I'd also love to see a little more research on older consumers” versus “impacts on youth” as “I feel like that's a growth segment of the consumer market that really hasn't been looked at.”
      • Finally, differences in concentrates, which “can mean everything from some types of concentrates like kief or hash, which are going to be in the 30s or 40s [percentage,] and then products that could be, you know, 85, 90, or over 90% THC.”
    • Douglas Henderson, Painted Rooster Cannabis Company CEO, noted that cannabis had been used for self-medicating “with different substances, including alcohol is well established...understanding that as a metric, and as a consideration, as we're assessing…is going to be really important.” He seconded Rondeaux’s call for research into temperature settings on vapor devices, particularly “with adulterants, and other additives to those products.” Henderson’s example was “Myclobutanil, in itself, not ideal, but not so bad. But once you light it on fire, it does become cyanide” (audio - 2m).
    • Kingsbury indicated “if we start from the premise that good public policy is dependent upon good science,” then a lingering question he’d had since a September 2022 UW ADAI symposium on high THC products involved “a conflation of psychosis and schizophrenia” (audio - 3m).
      • After reviewing several academic papers, Kingsbury acknowledged “that I've been high enough that I meet…DSM criteria for psychosis.” He guessed when he “was younger, I probably was drunk enough to do that. But that's quite a different thing from schizophrenia, which I understand to be more of a chronic condition.” Kingsbury said the treatment for schizophrenia differed from psychosis even if “they meet at the point of psychosis.” He suggested better delineating between studies looking at each condition would help his understanding of the health risks.
      • Haley replied, “It makes me want to check in with some of the ADAI folks and some other researchers and see if maybe that's a messaging piece when, when relaying their data out,” since even “as a trained health educator with a science degree, it's hard to interpret some of those findings.” 
      • The distinction between psychosis and schizophrenia has been reported on by VeryWellHealth, PsychCentral, and Healthline.
    • Ryan had doubts about how much alcohol and cannabis should be compared. “I understand the impulse…it's mood altering, and it has an impact,” however “even according to the federal government, cannabis has a medical application.” She hoped that research questions could be asked that reflected those were “two very, very different substances that work very differently in the body” (audio - 1m).

• Bringing the conversation to a close, Haley indicated that more conversations hosted by the agency for cannabis industry, public health, and prevention representatives were in the works - and one was announced the next day (audio - 2m).
  • Sharing her appreciation for everyone who’d participated, Haley suspected “some of you probably came kind of hesitant, [but] I hope that this was a productive use of your time, I found it incredibly valuable.” She asked, “if we hosted another meeting like this, is there more to be said on the topic of high THC, would you want to attend another meeting?” After many participants responded affirmatively in the chat box, Haley said, “I can set up another call, maybe an hour, hour and a half at some point in early July so we can continue this conversation.” She also wanted to schedule discussions on other topics with both cannabis and public health representatives.
  • Additionally, “I'd love to be invited to your…association meetings or other industry meetings y'all are having,” Haley remarked. With sufficient lead time, “we can prep and make that meaningful for everyone,” she said, requesting that people “be on the lookout for future calls like this.”
  • On June 27th, Haley sent out an announcement that a second focus group on the topic of high THC products would be hosted by the agency on July 10th open to cannabis sector participants.